What was the original line?
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It was: “If I got you, then I can get through everything as long as I can see your face.” Which, to me, is a way too long run-on sentence. So I changed it to, “Oh, I got you and I can get through anything as long as I can see your face.” [Laughs] It was so minor, but it made me feel so much better.
Well, that’s the lesson for songwriters, that because songs are such a short form, every line really matters.
Absolutely. Now I am really happy with the song, and I love performing it. It’s a real honest writing of where I was when we were making the record. I was in L.A. and I have a hard time being in L.A. My partner’s in Massachusetts. That’s like another world away.
Is that the main reason you don’t like L.A., because your partner is not here, or are there other reasons?
I like L.A. for some things, and I really enjoy being in Silverlake, because I think it’s the most like Portland or Seattle. There’s something in the air there, and I feel very disconnected from everybody. People I make eye contact with don’t see me. I think people are really in their heads and constantly judging themselves and each other in Los Angeles. I think that’s true for the whole world, but L.A. is sort of the capital of superficiality. I walk into any club and think, “Wow, I do not look like any of these women.” And I instantly feel not good enough. There are so many times I feel, “Oh, I’m not famous enough to go to this club.” And I don’t like that.
There’s also something with the sun. I can enjoy hot weather, when it feels like the sun is being kind. I think there’s so much pollution in L.A. that the sun is mad, and it’s burning me in a mad way. Whereas in Massachusetts, it gets hot, but the sun feels kind.
I wanted to ask you about “When You Sleep,” which has become my favorite song on the album.
Thank you. “When You Sleep” was just me. I wrote it by myself. I wrote it right after I met my partner. The day after I met her. It’s about that moment when you’ve found your person, that person that makes you feel like you’ve been holding your breath your whole life, and you ‘ve finally had your first real deep breath. And you sort of fabricated this feeling in your head over and over with all these relationships, so do you trust yourself that this is really the real thing? Could it possibly be that person? And it totally is. It could still go either way, and you hope they feel the same way.
It’s one of my favorite songs. I feel so emotionally attached to it, to the chorus and the intensity and the lyrics. It’s everything that I wanted to say. And I think it’s her favorite song, too.
It’s so beautiful. And because you’re a poet, your lyrics go to unexpected places, but it’s always musical. Like Patti Smith, you use words that are unexpected for a song. That line, “I can be a ghost in your eardrum when you sleep.”
Thank you! I think it’s that feeling when someone gets stuck in your memory. And you can still hear that person, though they’re not talking. That’s what that feeling is.
As in “So Far Away,” with “kiss me like the world is gonna disappear,” in this one you have, “I can make you happy, I can disappear completely.” Your ultimate proclamation of love is where you are so close, you disappear.
I never even thought about that! You’ve illuminated a new facet for the record, my friend.
That’s what your fans will do. Read volumes into every line, and make all these connections for you.
[Much laughter] I love that.
You wrote that one alone, and it’s pretty great. So why did you choose to collaborate on so many songs?
I think it was because I wanted to make a pop album. If I wanted to make an album of confessional pillow songs, I could definitely do that on my own. I’m not versed in pop the way I want to be. I am really melodically and lyrically driven. I wanted to make my version of Teenage Dream. An album of viable singles that could make sense in a lot of different capacities, but still retain the kind of artistry that I believe in, and that I can bring to the table.
You definitely succeeded. The ultimate example of that is “Secrets,” which is such a strong hook. I heard you sing it live, and it was stuck in my head right away –
[Laughs] Sorry…
But in a good way! But at the same time, maintaining your singular expression. It’s a pop song about giving away stuff you don’t normally talk about in pop songs.
That’s what I wanted. I wrote it with the power team. Eric, Marie and Benny. It was literally one of the funnest nights of my whole life. Not just the songwriting, but connecting with other people and just laughing about the song. We knocked it out in a couple hours. And recorded some of the vocals that night, too. It was just so easy. It came out so perfectly. Like it was supposed to happen.
Eric started writing the one melodic line on the piano, and I loved that quirkiness. It reminded me of Regina Spektor. And Benny added these really fun claps and beat to it. And I was in my head, grooving to that. And I wanted to do an empowerment song, about loving yourself in a different way. Because I felt a lot of the empowerment songs were often tied up in this bow that is kind of unfair. You’re talking about empowerment, but in such a polished way that it felt alienating. So I wanted to put the lens on myself, so hopefully have this song be an invitation to self-acceptance and to self-love, and to rid yourself of guilt and shame.
And Marie said, “We’ll call it ‘Secrets’!” She came up with that chorus and that hook melody, and it was so perfect, I hugged her.
I love the “So what” tag.
Thank you. That was me.
Also, on “Secrets,” you did that operatic section. What inspired that?
I composed the string section in the middle, and said, “Let’s do this ridiculous string section,” because we can. I was thinking of the Beach Boys on Pet Sounds, when suddenly they have that fugue section that comes out of fucking nowhere. And I love that element of surprise, and thought, why not? And that was the plan, and I started singing opera with it, and it sounded so perfect, I improvised that, and it fit right in there.
I wanted to be an opera singer. Then I realized you had to shape your whole life around being an opera singer, and you couldn’t drink whiskey or smoke cigarettes, and I couldn’t sing jazz if I wanted to. So I kept it as a fun hobby, an element of surprise.
Had you considered writing that kind of song before you wrote it?
No. No idea. That was kind of the beauty of the record. There were no plans. I had maybe three songs that we considered putting on the record. But we scrapped all of them. And we wrote these songs as we recorded it. All of these songs are brand new, and were written during recording.
“Secrets” is in C major—
Yes. It’s so easy to play.
It’s the key of the people, right?
Absolutely. It’s my favorite key. Or A minor. A minor is my favorite key to write in.
Yet “When You Sleep” is in G flat.
That is my second favorite key to write in.
Cause you write on piano, right?
Yes.
Guitarists wouldn’t do that. But that’s all the black notes.
Yeah. I like all the black notes – or in C and A minor, all the white notes. I like A major too.
