Brandy Clark and Ben Platt recently sat down with American Songwriter to delve into a conversation about their latest musical endeavors and personal journeys. Ben, whose new album Honeymind is produced by Dave Cobb, shared insights into the creative process behind the record. Brandy, celebrated for her self-titled Grammy-winning album produced by Brandi Carlile, reflected on the profound impact of her work. The two artists also discussed recording the song “Treehouse” together, bringing their unique blend of storytelling to fans across the country.
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Both Brandy and Ben have navigated the intricacies of coming out as gay in the music industry, and their openness about their experiences has resonated deeply with fans. They explored how their identities have shaped their artistry and songwriting. Their mutual respect and admiration for each other’s work were evident as they exchanged stories about their achievements and challenges. The interview with American Songwriter provided a unique glimpse into the lives of two talented voices in music, showcasing their shared passion for storytelling through song. Check out highlights from their conversation.
Ben Platt: So, how’d you find your way to music in the first place?
Brandy Clark: My mom has been every influence I’ve probably had musically. She loved country music, and she loved musical theater. So, my first memories were watching Coal Miner’s Daughter about Loretta Lynn and Sweet Dreams about Patsy Cline, and then my mom taking me to a local production of Oklahoma. She could play any instrument except the guitar. She can play guitar now, but as a kid, she didn’t play guitar. She could just fake her way on the piano. So, if I heard a song I loved, my mom could sit down and play it. How about you? How did you make your way to music?
BP: Similar. I mean, my parents met doing musical theater in college. And then, I think my dad was either directing or producing some show at Penn, at the school, and he cast my mom in it. So, I just grew up with them singing musical theater, playing musical theater in the car, and doing youth musical theater programs that all of my older siblings had done. First and foremost, the world of Broadway and the characters singing their perspective was the first place that music influenced me. And I sang mostly in that context, and it was only as I got a little older and started to widen that bubble, and play piano myself, and hear other artists, and start to listen to what my parents loved growing up, like Carole King, and James Taylor, and Fleetwood Mac, and all of that kind of stuff, that I started to realize that it didn’t have to be always in the context of some larger story and that there was so much more to it than just this world of original cast albums, which obviously I still love the most. But definitely, singing in the context of a story was the first impression that music made on me.
BC: I was thinking this morning about things I wanted to ask you, and I was wondering if your background in musical theater and having to get into a character’s mindset to sing and embody a song have helped you as a writer figure out what it is you, as your own artist, want to say.
BP: I think so. At first, it was a deterrent in terms of fear because I was so used to being more of an actor for hire and just focusing on expressing somebody else’s perspective. But I think in terms of the actual act of the songwriting, totally yes. Because, which I say in our concert that we do every night, I think in musical theater, it’s all about the song comes when there’s something that needs to be expressed in a super emotionally complex or more internally revealing way, and always has to come from a very particular perspective, and try to finish somewhere differently than where it starts. That’s sort of the measure of a great song in musical theater, which I think is the measure of any great song. Certainly, when I started to try my hand at it, I think coming into the songwriting process from the perspective of what am I, as a character, trying to express, or what experience am I trying to reflect, and how is it going to be different at the end of the song than it is at the beginning? I feel like that was a great gateway entry point for that.
BC: Do you remember trying to write your first song?
BP: The first form of songwriting I think I ever remember is writing lyrics and rewriting lyrics. My family, growing up, would perform whenever there was a family event, like a wedding or a Bar Mitzvah, we would take a pop song, a theater song, or a medley of songs and rewrite them to be about whoever was being Bar Mitzvah or whoever was getting married, and do it as sort of a comedic thing. So, I loved the wordplay, the scansion, and the rhythmic math of taking a song that already had very clear boundaries and trying to change it, rewrite it, and come in from a purely lyrical perspective. Then, only when I was in my early 20s and doing Dear Evan Hansen, and was really wanting to try to go all the way, and write totally from my perspective, and take the training wheels of the joke off, that’s when I started to—I mean, I played piano my whole life, but this is the first time that I tried to marry the two, and write musically from the ground up. What about you? When was your first?
BC: Very similar, I guess sort of. When I mentioned the movie Sweet Dreams, the music of Patsy Cline was what got me. And then, when I would see Coal Miner’s Daughter, and see that Loretta Lynn wrote those songs … Because I, as a kid, thought every song that was ever going to be was in existence. Like on the seventh day, God said, “Here are all the songs.” I didn’t realize that people were making up new songs until I saw Coal Miner’s Daughter, and that Loretta was writing those songs. So, I wanted to write songs like “I Fall To Pieces” and “Crazy” as a nine-year-old girl. So, I was writing all these heartbreak songs, probably ripping off those melodies … now that I think about it, to try to write those kinds of songs, things I didn’t know anything about. And so, that’s where it started. And then, I put it away for a long time, and also, in my 20s, got serious about it again. But I have always been intrigued with songs, clearly, we both were.
BP: I think the first time you and I ever met each other was in our session.
BC: Yes, it was.
BP: I knew very much who you were. I was an admirer of yours, both in terms of your music and as somebody who’s always wanted to bridge the gap between songwriting and the world of theater and disband the myth that those are such different forms. I was so excited about what you were doing and what you and Shane McAnally were doing. So, when I came here to write, I was very much harboring the hope that we’d get to work together. And thank God it worked out, and we got to.
BC: Yeah, it was a mutual fan club, because it was you, and I, and Jimmy Robbins.
BP: Yes.
BC: I’m really glad that Jimmy was there because I am such a fan of yours that…
BP: He’s amazing.
BC: … I probably would not have been able to hit it out of the park with you because I would’ve gotten too in my own head. Jimmy is such a great writer and knows how to keep things going. I remember loving that you knew what you wanted to say. You came in with that idea, “Treehouse.” You wanted to write it about you and Noah, and I loved that. I was like, “Oh, I love that this guy knows who he is enough as an artist to want us to help him tell this story.”
BP: Well, thanks. I think [“Treehouse”] was an idea that I had. I had my little notes app going. And I love that idea of that metaphor. We had just got our first home together, and we were calling it the treehouse because it was surrounded by trees. And I kept thinking about this dichotomy of something being so fragile and so almost about to fall apart but also so safe. And I knew that that was a fruitful area. Still, I was really particularly saving it for our session because I just had this inclination that when I found out we were going to finally get to do something together, we might connect on that. And I’m so glad that we did.
BC: I’m happy that you asked me to singe on it, and that you were so patient with me not being a great harmony singer, and made it work, and continued to make it work on tour. And one of the things I think is really beautiful, and I think about this every night when we sing it, is that we’re both gay, and we’re singing this love song, and there’s something really beautiful about it.
BP: I think we both have a very particular understanding of the weight of that in super different, but also really connected ways. And I think it is really special. It also just points out to me the specialness of the song that no matter what experiences we’re both coming at it from, it just feels like the kind of song where two people just come together.
BC: There’s a lot of special.
BP: What was that journey like for you to bring your queerness into who you are as an artist, especially in a space where that is not an easy thing to do?
BC: It’s been a journey because there was a time when I just never even pursued being an artist because I thought the fact that I was openly gay would just make that impossible. And luckily, my first manager, Emily March Banks, heard some songs I was singing the demo of, approached me, and wanted to help me make a record. I was so nervous to tell her that I was gay because she was so into my music, and I thought, “This will be the turnoff.” And I told her, and she was like, “Oh, I don’t care.” I’m so thankful that her response was what it was. Because it kind of let me think, “Oh, I could exhale.”
I’ve seen the way that being gay is treated in Country and Americana music change. In Americana music, I don’t know if it’s ever been taboo to be gay, I don’t think. And my artist career lives more over there. But I was definitely scared. There was never anybody who said, “This won’t happen because you’re gay,” so it might’ve just all been internalized. I’m really happy that I have just gotten to be who I am and haven’t had to keep part of myself in the shadows.
The time I’ve spent in the musical theater world, I remember there was … At one point they said we didn’t have enough diversity. And I said, “Well, all of the creators are gay.” And I remember our general manager at the time saying, “Oh, honey, that’s no big deal. We’re here.”
BP: Yeah. It’s the one place where that’s the majority—in the theater making.
BC: Did that help you?
BP: Totally. First of all, I so relate to everything that you said. And I think it kind of comes back to the specificity, creating the universality. As you said, you don’t even notice the particular pronouns or the particular perspective because that’s the experience you’re writing about, so, why would you edit back what makes it particular for no reason? I felt the same when I started to write songs that were very clearly from a queer perspective of people saying to me after the fact, “What did it feel like to really put that out?” It’s like, “Well, I was writing about my relationship, and I was with a guy, so why would I change the details of that?”
But I think because I came from, first and foremost, being an actor and playing characters, less so now, but as I was coming up, there’s definitely a pressure to keep your personal life and private life mysterious, and not necessarily, particularly when you’re a queer person so that directors and casting directors can see you in any way that they need to see you. And that if you’re too overt about your queerness, then they might not cast you as a romantic lead with a girl, or they might not see you as a character that is masculine presenting, or that there might be an aversion to you being able to be as chameleonic as you want to be. I had this internalized thing of not necessarily wanting to be so forthright about it as I was starting to come up and play different characters.
So for me, songwriting and coming into this world of getting to have my own artist project and sing as myself was this beautiful freeing space where there was nothing to do but be completely upfront about all of that, and share my experience without any kind of edit, and just force myself out of that way of thinking, and limitation, which I think as we’re moving forward, and the industry’s getting more symbiotic, I think that myth is kind of lifting, in the sense that queer actors can play incredibly queer fem characters, and then turn around, and play the prince in a straight fairy tale.
I feel like getting to songwrite as myself, if anything, has put me more in touch with that part of my identity, and understand it better. And I feel grateful to artists like you, and people like Sam Smith, there are a lot of artists like Elton John, who I grew up seeing … just having it be part of the tapestry of what they were making, and not always necessarily the reason or the cause, but just part of the specificity, and part of the story, and part of what makes it particular, and interesting.
BC: I would never have guessed that you struggled with being gay at all. When I see you, I think, “Oh, man, there’s somebody who never had any shame.”
BP: Well, privately, I think because I had such an accepting family, I did have the privilege of not having to feel any kind of shame like, “I wish I was different on an interpersonal level, on a romantic level.” But I do think there’s this thing of being an actor in the industry that it can get in your head about keeping a lid on that in a certain way in terms of the public eye. So, yeah, that was more of a learning curve for me of, “No, that’s part of what makes you an interesting artist, not a limitation. It’s just a kaleidoscope part of who you are.”
BP: Why did you feel this was the moment to put out an album that’s self-titled—it’s just Brandy Clark?
BC: Well, another Brandi, Brandi Carlile, produced this record, and she really pushed me to not have anything on that album that I wouldn’t say. She had me go and change lyrics that maybe didn’t completely fit who I am. And so, it was the most me that I’ve ever done on a record. All my records, when I listen to them, feel like me. But this one, there’s nothing I can point to and say, “Well, that doesn’t really completely resonate.”
But there was nothing else that resonated enough with me as far as one song to encapsulate the whole record. And I love that four albums in, I made a self-titled album, because an evolution, and I feel more like myself now than I did yesterday.
I’d love to hear how you and Dave Cobb connected and how your album Honeymind came about.
BP: When I started writing this album, I tried not to put any kind of stylistic idea on it before I saw what it was going to be. I just sort of allow the first few songs in that period to just come out, and be whatever they are, and then just see where I’m at, as opposed to being like, “I’m going to make an album that sounds a little bit more this way,” or, “I’m going to live more in the Folk space now.” Just because, like you were saying, I’m feeling a little more comfortable in myself, realizing who I am, and getting more holistically understanding of where I’m at, having found Noah (Platt’s fiancè), and settling into my life with him. The sound was a little more unadorned, and a little more in this Americana folk landscape. It felt reflective of where I was emotionally and was feeling really right.
As soon as I felt that that was the space the music was going to live in, one of the first people that came to mind in terms of a brilliant producer who operates in that space was Dave. I’ve been such a fan of him and so many of the different things that he’s done. And also, how he’s able to really zero in on individual artists depending on who he’s working with and bring out the authenticity and organic nature as opposed to there being a sound of his that is sort of put on to people. That felt so appealing and exciting to me. And I was thrilled that he agreed to do it and was into it.
In terms of the Honeymind of it all, I’ve told this story, but I was on a hike with Noah, and we were doing mushrooms and having one of those lofty conversations where little songwriting nuggets come about. I was talking about the experience. I’m a super anxious person, and he has this really beautiful ability to help me come a little bit back down to earth and not get so stuck in my mind. I was thinking about a visualization of what it looks like inside your mind when you’re dealing with stresses, anxieties, and things that are roadblocks. They’re kind of sticking out, and there are these sharp things that are fighting with each other and that are in the way of more important stuff.
And I was like, “I think that being in love or having somebody like that doesn’t necessarily make those things disappear, or take them away, or make them disintegrate.” They’re all still there and their realities, but I think it makes everything just a little less jagged and a little softer. I just kept thinking about this coating, which made it a little easier and sweeter. And we landed on Honey. And I was like, “It’s honey. There’s honey in my mind.” And Noah was like, “That sounds like a song.” And so, I went and wrote the song, and then down the line, it felt like a great moniker for the whole energy of the album.
BC: It is. I think it’s a great moniker for the album.
BP: Thanks. So, once we finish our tour (The Honeymind Tour), and take a long nap, what do you got up the pike? What’s coming up?
BC: I’m going to dive back into writing. I need to write a new record. I’m really close to figuring out a new project with Robert and Shane (McAnally).
BP: Yes. I’m excited to hear what that is.
BC: My plan is for you to star in it. I just need a season of creating. I’ve been on output for a long time, as far as promoting a record and touring, and all that. So writing, figuring out what my next record will be, and getting inspired to do all that.
What about you? Where are you off to when we wrap?
BP: When I wrap, I’m going to get married in the fall and go on a honeymoon. And then, I’m pretty open to the universe. I feel similarly where I’m ready to create. My fiancè always puts it that we’re horny for the process, which means that we …
BC: Oh my gosh, I love that.
BP: …we love the actual making of the thing. We had the opportunity to make this movie theater camp together a couple of years ago. And I think that really cracked open this realization that songwriting isn’t the only space I can take more creative control, like watching you guys write that musical (Shucked). Having that sort of scope and ownership of something feels so inspiring and exciting to me that regardless of the medium, I’d love to just keep finding things where I can help be part of the creation. And whether that’s another record, a piece of theater, or a film, I’m just looking for something that feels like I can be part of the day one of it.
BC: I love that.
BP: Yeah, yeah. And maybe it’ll be the musical.
BC: Yeah, I hope it is. Ben, I’m putting it hard into the universe.
BP: Well, it’s out there now.
Photo by Eric Overstreet
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